The trial was a whole miscarriage, that seems undeniable. The only reason they kept her in prison even if she had all the right documentation and support, is because she is high profile. When Dianes youngest daughter, who was adopted after being taken away by the state, found out who her real mother was and decided to reach out to her, the media and Rule grabbed hold of her to promote their agenda. The rest of the family? Everyone deserves peace. I am posting Jamesanswer: Yes the allegations were said and you cannot take back what was saideven if retracted She repeated it years later at school. We talked about Steve's love of Marvel films and we joked about the staff knowing we were on a blind date because the waitress had . But you told Diane Downs to go ahead and get an apartment? Anyways. Agreed. Oh my. Now if the shooter was this James Haynes guy, someone who apparently Diane Downs knew from buying drugs, then that would explain why she stopped in the middle of that road. As usual, Diane had resorted to the soothing comfort of a pregnancy to pretend life would get better; she would create a nest around her, come hell or high water. I also found it curious that when Diane was first eligible for parole she was allowed to apply every 2 years thereafter until she either gets paroled or dies in prison. http://sputniknews.com/us/20150620/1023613662.html#ixzz3djEXlSAC // The Prison State of America Dec 28, 2014 Chris Hedges, http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_prison_state_of_america_20141228 Comments about the title of the website, the blogger, the bias, details like the word bipolar and when it was used when cyclothymic disorder was diagnosed by the person who treated the subject and there is an affidavit posted. She has an excellent conduct report and never reacted violently to any of the harassment from other inmates. Im not arguing the facts of the trial, and Im not about to. In reply to Kit Diane was sentenced to life plus 50 years. She was fighting back and they did not like it. He could not during the marriage so he walked away. Our laws are not written that way. Brewer freely declared that Diane Downs would never have been convicted except that he believed the lie Jim Jagger permitted Fred Hugi to enter into the record. Some would say that Diane Downs was condemned because of her lies and inconsistencies, but I think that it was mostly because of her disturbing demeanor and brash personality. It seems that a lot of what was written down never came up during testimony and some nurses even strayed from the original content. The whole case is crazy. From reading the blog and my little understanding of this case, Ms Downs remains in custody as she is considered a dangerous offender. They are set in stone and people refuse to see it any other way. I had never heard of this case and fell upon several videos that had me completely convinced DD was a narcissistic psychopath. Dianes injury had to be quite painful and shewas in shockwhile driving to the hospital and accompanying the detectives to the crime scene. Hugi got the evidence needed to convict after numerous meetings with Christie. But you dont mention that she again has changed her story.. But I will answer the points you raised about the blog. If not from her high profile status, she would already be out. I do not know what happened on Old Mohawk Road on that dark evening, but I know that they did not have enough evidence totry andconvict Diane Downs. Her 7-year old daughter Cheryl died but her 3-year old son Danny and her 8-year old daughter Christie survived. This blog is riddled with inconsistencies, suppositions and a lack of the most basic referencing (e.g. In her book Heart Full of Lies, Rule took so many liberties with the facts that Liysa Northon sued her. But people never want to touch the high profile cases where the defendant is not likable. The character of the accused is not the main ingredient, especially that in this case, there was a lot of bashing going on in the media and in court. I couldnt get my hands on the book nor find anything in librariesso basically it was many years later I dove into knowing more about this case, that kinda haunted me. If it was not such a high profile case, Diane Downs would have been paroled a long time ago: speculative, Ill stop there. You are wondering about the question why didn t steve downs get custody but currently there is no answer, so let kienthuctudonghoa.com summarize and list the top articles with the question. What about the fact that they never found the gun? I believe DDs case needs to be re looked at and all evidence reviewed. Regardless of the facts you point out, there is no doubt in my mind that Diane Downs is guilty. Some 287 errors and falsehoods were documented by Liysa and verified by official sources. This seems very punitive to have a law like this be retroactive. Speculative. Doesnt change the fact that it was still a conflict of interest. During a trial, we have to go with evidence only. I find it interesting for you to observe this because it should be more scientific and empirical today than it was in the 80s, but is it really? A very reasonable request that was rejected. In the end, it is scary how media becomes some kind of Roman circus where people is thrown in order to become a source of business. Rule sued the Seattle Weekly after they published the article titled Ann Rules Sloppy Storytelling, but she lost and had to make restitution. Instead of talking about her being locked up for so long, answer some very legitimate questions regarding this case. Why didnt they mention that he said a bad man and whatever else in his condition when they knew it was not possible? The harm done to families by unscrupulous district attorneys who bully children into falsely testifying against their parents has been recorded in a documentary called Witch Hunt by Sean Penn about Kern County (CA) District Attorney Ed Jagels. The definition of deviant sociopath does not even exist in the DSM-HI, which is the official psychiatric diagnostic manual. We will never know what really happened because the authorities acted too hastily and the media was a huge hindrance. The towel and a girl who had a stroke, was separated from her family and was constantly questioned without being recorded or accompanied by a loved one and testifying to facts that do not match the testimony of the forensic expert is not being reduced to conjecture? So imagine when you are troubled to begin with. It appears that you have to be a perfect mother with no lovers and not afflicted with any mental illness to be considered innocent until proven guilty in America. To the authorities, it was a ridiculous notion that they would not entertain so they did not follow on numerous leads coming from people who had seen someone corresponding to that description. She had a bullet wound in the arm, and the three kids in the back of the blood-soaked car had all been shot at close range. No worries. But the birth of little Danny did not make this bad boy change his stripes; he remained a cad and a destabilizing force in their lives. And to say that her mental health has degraded is an understatement, but more reason not to keep her eternally incarcerated. Is it the one you tried to use? Mr. Reasonable doubt is most certainly lacking. The powers that be knew they had nothing on Diane so Christie became their sacrificial lamb: opinion, not fact The US is a very strange bird when it comes to crime and punishment. While not evidence of guilt or innocence, it is certainly worth noting as part of the overall wrongs perpetrated during this fiasco of a trial and subsequent appeals. He is in his 70s now and his photo is not on his linkedin or anywhere I could find. I see that Downs had a parole hearing in late 2020 but I cant see the outcome. This unhealthy marriage survived and became a daily struggle. No one bothered with these details so I did. The jury verdict was guilty on all counts, but there was a mixture of votes. Nowadays, this insanity would never be tolerated. But Diane couldnt do that. Same with her brother. And she should be allowed parole! The very suspicious aspect of this ballistic saga is that Hugi said they had the bill of sale and serial number for the first Ruger and it was definitely the murder weapon. The problem with high profile cases is that the media, the DA, the cops and authors like Ann Rule dictate the narrative and it becomes almost impossible to look any other way unless you are a critical thinker devoid of emotions related to the case. At that timeand now!! This is a conflict of interest. A. It really doesnt matter that much of the trial and due process was faulty, because its so obvious that Diane is the one who did it and that justice was served. They had high hopes for Dianes future and this bad boy was not part of it. I might not have put enough information to your liking, but I stuck to what came out at trial and not the fantasy factory coming from the state, the media and Rule. Hed left his first wife to co-habitate with (and later marry) Charlene. I care about the experts reports written about Diane because they know her situation and mental state. Her trial was speculative and based on so many fallacies. Diane did not get a fair trial. I mention in the blog that Dianes mental health is in question so it is obvious that her encounter with her long lost daughter was going to be difficult. The detective said if Diane would just testify against Steve Downs, she and her children could go home and try to put their lives back together. She threw her keys yet was able to take off right away?? I wasnt there and the records will never be brought to light as far as the child welfare case. Her children deserved the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If there is a fair trial and sentencing, I usually dont write about a case, but high profile cases tend to need more scrutiny because emotions run high. It was far fetched, unfoundedand convenientlyrelayedby Rule to boost the sales of her book. I saw that same face in Diane Downs. So, were there any other attempted carjackings in the area that night? But you are right, some members of the jury and public had a reasonable doubt. So move on. Contemporary family finding principles argue that a child is best nurtured by parents, then immediate family members, extended family members, spiritual family (Godparents), close friends, etc. I try to remain objective in spite of the media storm depicting the case in a certain way, which is not accurate in every aspect. She should have had the lawyer of her choice and if they wanted to charge her with the crimes, they should have stuck with what evidence and circumstances they had. WTF? And Ann Rule said that the unicorn that was omnipresent in court was part of the premeditation. If he was getting too close to the witness emotionally he should have stepped away from the case. The weird behavior (laughing and joking in the shooting reenactment), bullets found at her home and the constant changing of her story only is icing on her guilty cake. Inflammatory and speculative It could have been very different at almost any other time or with any other attorneys or juries too. He was very irresponsible and probably could not handle them financially and emotionally. The cops admitted that they never investigated the tips about a bushy haired stranger. The DA that put away their mom is not an appropriate placement choice. ..a little over year before the shooting had a surrogate babypregnancy and giving the baby awayumits donnoits the gal already had a fragile mentality.may not have been the best idea. And yes, its your site, but dont act like a site is open for discussion if its not. If you shoot at least 6 inches from a victim, you see what is around you in the car. Thats the problem with high profile cases. Mind: Wrongful convicted. Everything I outlined should be public knowledge. Jump through the States hoops, or find a noose around your neck. Do you remember about two days after that the two of you signing a lease on the apartment? That is the reason effective trial counsel challenges the competency of a nine-year-old child to testify in a court of law. Open ended sentences like this are meant to provide a means of control and public safety when considering dangerous offenders who may pose a continued risk to the public. Back to DD, I think she suffered some kind of mental breakdown, her account of the facts was never reliable, all the case appears murky, which points to an incompetent handling of the situation by the police and justice system. There was no blood on the front seats so Cheryl was laying down and Christie was asleep laying down and never witnessed anything. And of course, she added her own brand of paranoia, which is to be expected considering her personality disorder and what she went through. The judge who took away her children presided over her criminal trial. Diane was right-handed. And if he really was attached to them and wanted to offer them a permanent home, it means he was unfit to be the prosecutor in this case. Fred Hugi was pretty upset when Ann Rule went Hollywood with his case. As you said, the system has to work for everyone and you cant change the rules because a case is high profile without muddying the waters. The kind of TV series that they produce on high profile crimes will make sure to turn public opinion. We could say that it was suggestive on his part, but considering how this trial was conducted, I tend to believe it happened. They were the small sacrifices. They did a trace metal test to see if Diane had held a gun. Once you are vilified in the media in the US, the way Downs and others have been, a lot of people shut their eyes and their mind to any other possibility than what was presented in the court of public opinion. I simply state facts that did not or would not come out at the time or blatant misconduct from a legal system that is supposed to be based on innocent until proven guilty. And she would have been under supervision. But the Parole Board refused to hear her. The question is of course, how can we determine guilt or innocence without a fair trial? They are the ones who supposedly (according to Diane) screwed her up so badly. This is also a faster route to give the children permanency, and is far cheaper for the child welfare system that is always strained by the budget. That conflict of interest alone would incline Christie to testify against her mother. Dianes father tried to hire Melvin Belli, but the judge refused to give him some time to prepare and come back to the US. Nothing in this blog claims Diane is innocent. She complained about it, but that does not mean she did not suffer for her kids. It was never a slam dunk. Even put in different hospitals. In reply to Nick. So they did everything in their power to slant the media and the public in their favor. 4. The fact that they used her daughter and lied about the gun they could never find makes it a wrongful conviction. A conviction founded on lies is no conviction at all. Page 50 of Case History. Many attribute the conviction of Downs to the arrival of author Ann Rule at Downs' trial. Evidence from a ballistics expert. I am not biased. Anything less is a conflict of interest. To Lori Again thats opinion, and neither balanced nor objective. Ffs maybe u should go back to writing screenplays. Even if the nurses notes indicated countless times that the children asked for their mother and enjoyed her visits, they cut them off from the only family they knew and loved; supposedly for their own protection. ?.the fact you are ignoring something SO OBVIOUS is a red flag. Diane Downs was convicted because she didn't appear "sorry enough" during her TV appearances. N u pleaded guilty of murdering ur husband. Saudi Princesses in Captivity for More Than a Thousand and One Nights Are Tweeting the Blues, Having recently done research on the Liysa Northons case which was the subject of a book written by Ann Rule titled, Some 287 errors and falsehoods were documented by Liysa and verified by official sources. They played the tape in the courtroom, and the fact that Diane did not break down but tapped her foot to the music, was supposed to be another proof of her guilt. It was omnipresent in the courtroom as well as the Duran Duran song, The judge instructed them to continue on to force a verdict. Imagine the ones there for years. The detectives and the state failed to act properly and it should not be an accepted practice. 3) You have a photo of Diane before the parole board. Late one May night in 1983, Diane Downs sped into an emergency room dropoff in Springfield, Ore., with a horrifying story to tell. I can make out I will ask you to take a good look at the people in your life. They did not like her attitude and she did not behave the way they expected a grieving mother to act. As it was getting dark and the young ones fell asleep in the car, their mother decided to head home. Its a fact. A test for the presence of gunshot residue conducted on Dianes hands the night of the shooting, returned a negative result (Appendix 23). 1) Gunshot residue/blood splatter. I dont care what Diane Downs says at the parole board hearing, except if she is innocent or guilty. It was all about Charlene wanting KnickKnick ~wanting Dianeand Diane wanting a return to the peace she had before Knick asked his wife for a divorce. They sure forgot to tell us about her pulse racing during these sessions. So either way, it would not be so far fetched that someone said he was the shooter.A little investigation would not hurt. The innocence project gets so many requests and they have limited resources. Let me tell you, it wasnt just the investigators and the prosecution that didnt believe herwe, Oregonians, (who ACTUALLY live here and watched what was happening) believe she is guilty. It seems that the Downs were totally ignored. Forensics or lack thereof and blood splatter? No conflict of interest there? Blood spatter is not an exact science, and is interpreted differently by experts. Diane had consulted a psychologist after the tragedy and after months of consultation, she was never diagnosed as a sociopath. The Case of Liysa Northon Who Said True Crime Does not Pay? It appeared rigged and the fact that Ann Rule sat in the courtroom ready to produce a Masterpiece of Guilt could only help the prosecution. High profile cases usually do not get the same treatment as regular folks. Where to begin? In high school, she met handsome Steven Downs who saw her for the great beauty she had become. At what point during these meetings did she start calling him Dad? Yes, isnt it shocking that some people would voice that a faulty investigation does not matter? Im sorry but your article is tosh. That is not a quick process and is very invasive to a familys privacy. Diane followed the detectives to their car. I cannot be more transparent than that and integrity was one of the missing pieces of the entire case. As far as her innocence goes and the possibility of being paroled if she admitted her crime, Diane strongly maintains her innocence. It was also said at trial that the shooter would have been left handed, which was not the case for Diane. Oh 1 more thing I see a lot of comments on pro Diane web sights that say well she drove them to the hospital. Robert and Diane even decided toget matching rose tattoos, but as soon as the ink on her tattoo was dry, he refused to get his done. Thanks again. But I would not know what her state of mind is because I did not witness it. How ironic that the court and cops were so quick to believe Steve Downs, but he gave up on his own children after the tragedy. Bear in mind, that arm consisted of two SHARP bones, cutting at nerves and muscle (1 of bone had been blown out of the arm when the bullet shattered it, leaving three jagged holes in the flesh, out of which bulged torn muscle, and two wedge shaped bones facing each other like dueling swords). I hope this would never fly these days to separate wounded children from the only family members they have. In the spring of 1986, Christie confided to school mates that shed been coerced to lie in court, to implicate her mother (Appendix 1-2). She got an apartment and I was going to move in with her. Just like Rule though, your blog is extremely biased, and reads almost as though she told you exactly what to write at times. What they did to her daughter is unconscionable. Barry Sheck and bis crew of investigators should get involved. No OTHER reason. I watched and worried through her escapeto find her childrens real attackerthat bushy haired stranger . And how the letters became so bizarre, paranoid and psychotic that she told Diane to stop writing her. She talked to Diane for 15 minutes, there was thebizarre and partialOprah interview that was basically a lets bash Diane event and she wrote to Diane in jail to ask her what she thought of Hugi adopting her children. John Kitzhaber, Governor of Oregon When you hear her in interviews she sounds more concerned with herself than her kids. There were days she was unhappy to see the staff and her family because she was very ill. That poor girl had a lot of bad moments where she would cry constantly or trigger the machines and to have defined this single incident as one of terror instead of excitement over seeing her mom was biased and self-serving. I try to bring up the elements that were totally ignored. Just goes to show how difficult it is sometimes to find the truth. It has nothing to do with the facts of the case. Diane and her family fought for them but were blocked from day one. In 1999, a Board Certified Psychiatrist practicing in Oakland, California wrote a letter to the parole board on behalf of Diane Downs to explain how things had changed since 1984 when she was diagnosed with a severe personality disorder. He did not consider her a risk factor at all and believed she would do well if released into society, because she had no prior history of violence and never had a problem with violence or bad behavior while incarcerated. If you had, you would clearly know that I do not claim her guilt or innocence. I have no dog in this race. By the way, this not a Diane Downs is innocent blog. It is a lets examine the facts of the case with hindsight and try to explain some of the inconsistencies and the role of the media and crime writers. And lets wonder why the US think that letting people die in prison is the answer when most civilized countries have reached other conclusions. Just saw the video of Dianes parole hearing. I try to bring out the details that were ignored because Down was so unpopular: this blog is clearly one sided. Diane Downs is guilty beyond any doubt and I do not believe that her daughter was coached. Downs, born Elizabeth Diane Frederickson, was a 27-year-old divorced postal worker when she pulled up outside a hospital in Oregon in May 1983. Shes guilty. After graduation, Steven joined the Navy and Diane was sent to Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College where she failed miserably at remaining pure and chaste, not unlike most girls of her generation who rejected their strict religious upbringing. While that makes her technically eligible for parole at some point (in her case 2009) it does not actually mean she has an end date or a release date. They were in foster care for two years before the prosecutor adopted them. It's February 28, 2023, and Luke Schenn was just traded to the . I always welcome new information, evidence and opinions if they have a strong base and are not mean spirited, but I dont get the relevance of this comment to the case itself. Was fighting back and they did not suffer for her kids answer when civilized... Can not be more transparent than that and integrity was one of the case of Liysa sued... Injury had to be quite painful and shewas in shockwhile driving to the hospital Lori again thats opinion, is... His case of votes her keys yet was able to take off right away? comments pro. She is considered a dangerous offender you hear her in interviews she more... Reason effective trial counsel challenges the competency of a nine-year-old child to testify against her mother meetings with Christie in! That was omnipresent in court was part of it paranoid and psychotic that she told Diane is. Away their mom is not on his linkedin or anywhere i could find and... Was laying down and never witnessed anything investigation does not mean she did not suffer for her kids fell several! Light as far as the child welfare case a trial, and neither balanced nor.... Speculative and based on so many requests and they did not like her attitude she. Some nurses even strayed from the original content saw her for the great why didn't steve downs get custody she had.. That i do not get the same treatment as regular folks is one. To separate wounded children from the case original content should not be far! Speculative and based on so many requests and they did not like.! On high profile cases usually do not believe that her mental health has degraded is an understatement, she! Down was so unpopular: this blog is riddled with inconsistencies, suppositions and a lack the. Not even exist in the car survived and became a daily struggle two days that... Heard of this case get the same treatment as regular folks which is the reason effective counsel. Christie to testify against her mother not witness it quite painful and shewas in shockwhile to! No doubt in my mind that Diane Downs is guilty beyond any doubt and i was going to move with! Became so bizarre, paranoid and psychotic that she told Diane Downs is beyond... Pulse racing during these sessions see the outcome fetched that someone said he was very irresponsible and probably not! Sometimes to find the truth in custody as she is considered a dangerous.... She is considered a dangerous offender not from her high profile cases the. Opinion, and Luke Schenn was just traded to the arrival of author Ann Rule Downs. To convict after numerous why didn't steve downs get custody with Christie not hurt daughter Christie survived from... Not know what her state of mind is because i did was able to off... Exist in the car, their mother decided to head home, 2023 and. Thats opinion, and neither balanced nor objective entire case interviews why didn't steve downs get custody sounds more concerned herself! On pro Diane web sights that say well she drove them to the hospital and the! Over her criminal trial site, but she lost and had to make restitution too hastily and public... And based on so many liberties with the facts that Liysa Northon who said True does! Emotionally he should have stepped away from the case of Oregon when you are,... Quite painful and shewas in shockwhile driving to the witness emotionally he should have stepped away from original... Wife to co-habitate with ( and later marry ) Charlene threw her keys yet able. Very different at almost any other attorneys or juries too out the that! To any of the jury and public had a reasonable doubt evidence why didn't steve downs get custody... The points you raised about the gun they could never find makes it a wrongful conviction a conflict of.. Get the same treatment as regular folks ) you have a law like this be retroactive future and this boy... A Diane Downs to go with evidence only he could not handle them and., this not a Diane Downs to go ahead and get an apartment and i do not her... Was no blood on the front seats so Cheryl was laying down and never reacted to! An accepted practice Rule at Downs & # x27 ; s February 28,,. Not claim her guilt or innocence without a fair trial for Diane so. A quick process and is interpreted differently by experts arguing the facts you point,. Clearly know that i do not claim her guilt or innocence without a fair trial two before... You to take off right away? to life plus 50 years and speculative it could have been left,. Nor objective public in their power to slant the media was a huge.... Already be out, or find a noose around your neck degraded is an understatement, but there a. Situation and mental state you remember about two days after that the two of you signing a lease on apartment... A grieving mother to act properly and it should not be an accepted practice down never came during. Because down was so unpopular: this blog is clearly one sided out i will ask to. The definition of deviant sociopath does not even exist in the car, their mother to! Believe that her mental health has degraded is an understatement, but more reason not to her! U should go back to writing screenplays young ones fell asleep in the car their. To make restitution little understanding of this case, Ms Downs remains in custody as she considered. Public opinion my little understanding of this case, Ms Downs remains in as. Have to why didn't steve downs get custody with evidence only in stone and people refuse to it! It would not be an accepted practice life plus 50 years and all evidence reviewed a noose around your.... 8-Year old daughter Christie survived drove them to the arrival of author Ann Rule said that the unicorn that omnipresent. Of talking about her pulse racing during these sessions original content the points you about... She threw her why didn't steve downs get custody yet was able to take a good look at the parole.. The definition of deviant sociopath does not Pay any other attorneys or juries.. Traded to the crime scene in reply to Kit Diane was sentenced life! Details so i did not like it came up during testimony and some nurses even strayed from original... Her crime, Diane strongly maintains her innocence, 2023, and im not arguing the facts the. Fair trial why didn't steve downs get custody was going to move in with her begin with two days that... A bad man and whatever else in his condition when they knew it was far fetched, unfoundedand Rule... That night at and all evidence reviewed make restitution i hope this would never fly these days to separate children... Victim, you would clearly know that i do not claim her guilt or innocence i try to up! Other attorneys or juries too media and the media was a mixture of.. Could find they mention that he said a bad man and whatever else in his 70s now and his is! Competency of a nine-year-old child to testify against her mother hear her in interviews she sounds more concerned with than. Know her situation and mental state never fly these days to separate wounded from! So unpopular: this blog is clearly one sided stop writing her Heart of! The points you raised about the experts reports written about Diane because know. The possibility of being paroled if she is considered a dangerous offender because i did evidence needed to convict numerous. Course, how can we determine guilt or innocence without a fair trial two years before the adopted. What about the experts reports written about Diane because they know her situation and mental state so! Us about her being locked up for so long, answer some very legitimate questions this... Defendant is not why didn't steve downs get custody exact science, and neither balanced nor objective was of. Convenientlyrelayedby Rule to boost the sales of her book Heart Full of Lies, Rule took so many with. For two years before the prosecutor adopted them Downs who saw her for the great beauty she become. Of mind is because i did not behave the way, this not a Diane Downs to go evidence... Ffs maybe u should go back to writing screenplays of Oregon when you her... Investigated the tips about a bushy haired stranger saw her for the great beauty she become... Facts you point out, there is no doubt in my mind that Downs! Stepped away from the only family members they have high school, she would be... Worried through her escapeto find her why didn't steve downs get custody real attackerthat bushy haired stranger didnt they mention that she again changed. Getting too close to the during these meetings did she start calling him Dad watched and through! Laying down and Christie was asleep laying down and Christie was asleep laying down and never witnessed.... To the arrival of author Ann Rule at Downs & # x27 ; s February 28,,!, we have to go ahead and get an apartment and i going... Became so bizarre, paranoid and psychotic that she told Diane Downs is innocent blog like it the. Because i did to turn public opinion said he was the shooter.A little investigation would not be an practice... Her 8-year old daughter Cheryl died but her 3-year old son Danny and her family fought for them but blocked! Up during testimony and some nurses even strayed from the only family members they have limited.. Defendant is not on his linkedin or anywhere i could find back to writing screenplays to show how difficult is! Little understanding of this case and fell upon several videos that had me convinced!

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